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Post by White87GT on Apr 20, 2005 2:20:49 GMT -5
Joel - You have confused the hell out of me. I'll break it down.... I believe that you are right, and that the ECU uses the percentages to determine how much fuel is injected, while the size of the injector determines how much fuel is acutally injected per percentage point. Second, at full dump, the injectors go into max (full) duty cycle, and they litterally *dump* the maximum amount of fuel possible into the engine. This is 100% of their capacity, not 80. Injectors will do what they say they will (thus, 600cc dumps at 600cc's), but they are ECU controlled. What rule? The 80% rule? I'm lost. As for the afterburner, all they are is this; unburnt fuel being dumped into the superhot exhaust gases of the jet engine. This fuel ignites and produces more thrust. These systems are in no way similar to a turbo'd engine. The workings are completely different. Umm, isn't that the same thing? The purpose of an aftermarket ignition is to boost the power that the spark has as it leaves the spark plug. However, the more advanced ones can be used to pull the ignition timing of an engine that is experiancing detonation, thus reducing the horsepower produced and decreasing the detonation. What do you mean by your second sentence? Detonation (meaning knock/pre-detonation, etc) is not good and should be non existant in a turbo charged engine. Umm, cam adjustment on this engine is a bitch, as it is an SOHC engine with a 'slaved' cam. I wouldn't even touch them if I was boosting this engine. Dude, that's DEAD wrong. If you have high volume injectors and you have that setup, you will fry the damned thing. The problem is this. At the idle settings, the car would probably run somewhere close to normal. Then, the second that you touched the pedal, the car would go into 'dump' mode. When that happens, a shit ton load of fuel starts to go into the cylinders. So much that the oil is washed off of the cylinder walls with fuel. Then, boom, piston and cylinder wall weld themselves together and you have no more engine. In short, you WILL need more than two fuel maps. About 10 would probably do ya. Random thought - I keep seeing you mention 15+PSI. I'm not sure if you plan to actually put that much boost through this thing, but if you are, get some low comp pistions. The 3S-FE is already at the semi high level of. 9.2:1. I honestly would not take this engine over 6, maybe 7 PSI and expect it to live for more than a few miles. Just the way I'm seeing things.
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Post by White87GT on Apr 20, 2005 2:28:32 GMT -5
The reason I would imagine it would reduce the HP is by this...if you put more air in the cylinder with the same amount of fuel as you would with the less air....wouldn't the MSD retard the timing to try to prevent detonation, which would actually reduce HP if not flat out carry the same horsepower as without the turbo/boost? I mean if you retard the timing so the piston travels further up the cylinder until the spark is sent, then all you're doing is burning the same amount of fuel at a higher compression....you aren't really burning MORE fuel in this circumstance. Like I said earlier, I don't know think I know WTF i'm talking about....just my 2 cents. It's always good to learn something new anyway. Your slightly off on your reasoning. Detonation occures when the fuel/air mixture detonates in a certain cylinder before the piston reaches TDC. That's why it's bad. The term is actually 'pre-detonation'. The reason that the aftermarket ignition would pull the timing is to allow the piston to travel to TDC before the fuel/air mix detonates. You are correct that it would take power away from the engine though.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 20, 2005 11:18:59 GMT -5
Your slightly off on your reasoning. Detonation occures when the fuel/air mixture detonates in a certain cylinder before the piston reaches TDC. That's why it's bad. The term is actually 'pre-detonation'. Actually you're also slightly off in your reasoning, lol. Detonation occurs when the fuel detonates. The fuel in the engine is only supposed to burn, not explode. When the fuel gets burnt before reaching TDC it creates an extremely high pressure which is exerted on the valves, head and pistons/rods/etc working against the movement of the crank. If the fuel burns completely close enough to TDC the fuel doesn't explode. Relate this to a whistling peet that's unmodified(normal running engine) and a whistling peet that you modify and goes boom(detonation).
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Post by White87GT on Apr 20, 2005 12:23:02 GMT -5
Actually you're also slightly off in your reasoning, lol. Detonation occurs when the fuel detonates. The fuel in the engine is only supposed to burn, not explode. When the fuel gets burnt before reaching TDC it creates an extremely high pressure which is exerted on the valves, head and pistons/rods/etc working against the movement of the crank. If the fuel burns completely close enough to TDC the fuel doesn't explode. Relate this to a whistling peet that's unmodified(normal running engine) and a whistling peet that you modify and goes boom(detonation). Your right. That's what I was attempting to say, but look at the time of the post. Sorry about the confusion.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 20, 2005 12:47:59 GMT -5
Your right. That's what I was attempting to say, but look at the time of the post. Sorry about the confusion. haha, no prob...just thought i'd correct ya
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 20, 2005 20:01:13 GMT -5
Dude, that's DEAD wrong. If you have high volume injectors and you have that setup, you will fry the damned thing. The problem is this. At the idle settings, the car would probably run somewhere close to normal. Then, the second that you touched the pedal, the car would go into 'dump' mode. When that happens, a shit ton load of fuel starts to go into the cylinders. So much that the oil is washed off of the cylinder walls with fuel. Then, boom, piston and cylinder wall weld themselves together and you have no more engine. In short, you WILL need more than two fuel maps. About 10 would probably do ya. The 3SFE has two maps. Idle and full dump. Regardless thats our TPS setting. One thing more... The position of the throttle body aperature (butterfly) limits the air/fuel mixture. So from idle to full DUMP the Throttle Body flaps is another key to detonation. Thats the way I see my FE (actuated by your foot pedal) even with increased CCs injectors for more fuel its recipical to the amount of boost coming through your throttle body equal to detonation. So the position flap works too. So ask yourself these questions.1. So does our FE have two maps on our TPS? 2. If we increase Fuel / Air equal does it equal more HP? 3. If we regulate Detonation with MSD BTM will it create perfect detonatioin? 4. If we control the WasteGaste with 7PSI actuator does this set the limit of boost not matter what size Turbo from 5PSI to 100 PSI? 5. If we use Blitz Boost controller ~ is that another way of controlling your boost setup from the Wastegate into the throttlebody? If you said yes to any one ~ your are comprehending the big picture. If you said yes to all you are Optimistic and able to have a plato of thought. This thread is not stating fact just **** thinking*** this all out ~ brainstorming. Your participation is greatly noted. Again, I am expecting the MSD BTM to control the nock ~ retarding or advancing from 0* to 3* of boost and will only need 7PSI to prove that turbo will work. Please keep your ideas coming. v/r joel.
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Post by White87GT on Apr 21, 2005 7:57:49 GMT -5
You are correct in the fact that the car does only have 2 or 3 fuel maps built into the ECU. The problem with your logic is, the injectors are after the throttle body, and thus, the flap that is in the TB and the MAF will only be able to contol the amount of air that is flowing into the engine, not the ammount of fuel. With massive injectors, this could lead to the engine going bye bye, or it could lead to the car running pig rich and being down on power with smaller injectors. My point is, we would need more than 2 fuel maps to gain more control over the injectors, and thus, allow the car to run with a correct A/F mixture and have a reliable setup. The TPS is a 3 or 4 way setup. There was a large discussion over this a long time ago. I can't remember which on it was. Making the engine run lean with a higher A/F ratio will allow you to make more power. Making it run richer will allow the thing to last. Idealy, you want an A/F ratio of around 12:1, or 11.5:1 for a boosted engine. It should help achieve the 'perfect burn'. However, it would need to have a knock sensor working in tandom with it, and it would need to be able to pull the timing whenever knock was detected. Turbo's are generally measured by the amount of air that they can push (volumetric effciency) rather than the PSI. Yes, a good wastegate will limit the boost, no matter the VE of the turbo. A good BOV, and then you should see that 7PSI at the TB. The thing that you need to be worried about is a boost spike, when more than 7PSI would be forced into the engine. Joel - I didn't mean to come off like an ass in the other post, but I was confused as to your logic. I still do not think that this will work, but I might as well help you if your going to try.
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 21, 2005 8:48:37 GMT -5
White87GT Good morning, im typing this quick cuz I got work and traffic will be a stop and go. Reason, really what kicked off this project because I failed to communicate the maps and where i got the idea. Domestics that run Turbo example the Corvette run two maps. As I stated above all that is regulated mentioned in this thread. Not only that. Non turbo car such as Honda at 1.7cc and Mitsubitchia GS are turboed with just two fuel maps on the TPS. I am mirroring those Non Turbo setup that are working now with stonger internals and hopefully to get a RAV4 JDM 3SFE. Yeah, you werent a ass. I replied as though you didnt read the whole thread in how we were progressing our plato of thought. Your cool in my book ~ I right now have been talking with MSD and Domestic turbo resellars and they say two fuel maps is ok. The vette is two fuel maps 20/80, the honda is two fuel maps 20/80. Never Piss into on coming Wind Now as for the 20/80 rule and being the 80. Comes from my experience on working on jet engines ~ what I learned about injectors size no matter what was it will only use 80 percent due to impedes detonation in the afterburner ~ so what I am seeing is detonation in the chamber impeding 20% loss in the our combustion chamber leaving 80% cc capacity. Another contributed to loss is the impedence of heat. Heat will impede electrical triggers of injector actuation. I need your input believe it our not negative input helps me reinforce our train of thought on this thread. Alot of FE owners want to tubro. Then again some may see this a flaming point of failure. Well as I see ~ we have the best minds here and if we can learn from previous failures. I am sure we can go in the right direction. v/r Joel
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 21, 2005 16:51:54 GMT -5
The 3SFE has two maps. Idle and full dump. Regardless thats our TPS setting. One thing more... The position of the throttle body aperature (butterfly) limits the air/fuel mixture. So from idle to full DUMP the Throttle Body flaps is another key to detonation. I thought that these were fuel MAPS not fuel OUTPUTS...fuel is increased/decreased depending on how much you press on the gas pedal, right?....or am I wrong and it's just that when you press more on the gas pedal you get more air through the butterfly which allows more of that gas to burn?
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 21, 2005 16:56:04 GMT -5
i just got a train of thought when i was posting to the "what gas do you use" thread...I'm starting to wonder...did the guy who tried turboing the 3sfe think at all about using a higher octane(premium) gasoline before driving off? MAKE SURE NOT TO FORGET PREMIUM! lol
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 21, 2005 21:02:28 GMT -5
I thought that these were fuel MAPS not fuel OUTPUTS...fuel is increased/decreased depending on how much you press on the gas pedal, right?....or am I wrong and it's just that when you press more on the gas pedal you get more air through the butterfly which allows more of that gas to burn? From what I read the TPS sends signals to ECU in how to regulate A/F mixture depending on the apparature of the butterfly. I think for the reason later generations have 3 to 4 TPS when we have two is.. The extra position in TPS has something to do with (think) Stricter EPA regulations. Yes, they got OBD II while our is simple OBD I detontation. Also the extra TPS position also triggers their TVIS at 4000RPMs then the next trigger in TPS being full dump. Turbonetics says , "To turbo any engine all you need minimum is two MAPS idle and full dump with proper limit setups. The rest is the flap with increase more air for detonation. Anint no different then adding NOS. NOS is oxygen. So what we need is Controlled wastegate setting and boost controller, BOV and any size turbo you want providing you know how to plumb the works. Now as for the guy with his 3SFTE project. All he had was a ICEMAN intake ane a 3sgte exhaust manifold with a ct26. THe dude did nothing to increase this stock exhaust. He had no Boost controller ~ do you know what the wastegate is set on a 3sgte engine? Probably like 10 to 15 PSI stock. I dont know but he putting the 3sgte turbo with no set limit on detonation really killed his project. If you turbo always , always,alway use the highest octane. First thing I need to get~ is the MSD BTM. Im goin to experiment on it with my eRAM supercharger and see if it regulates my 3PSI of boost. Cuz my MSD 6AL doesnt do that... Just hi spark.
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Post by blck87gtconv on Apr 22, 2005 2:47:19 GMT -5
Not to be a rut in your plans, but I still say to Joel's future 3sfe.
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Post by garbled on Apr 22, 2005 10:20:14 GMT -5
With regards to the turbo you get, and how much boost it can push at max: If you plan to only run 7psi of boost, buy the smallest turbo you can to put it out. It will reduce spool lag. No sense mounting a watermelon and then choking it off.
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 22, 2005 12:07:29 GMT -5
With regards to the turbo you get, and how much boost it can push at max: If you plan to only run 7psi of boost, buy the smallest turbo you can to put it out. It will reduce spool lag. No sense mounting a watermelon and then choking it off. I thought I would get lag if I switched from internal wastegate to external. Though the t28s is a watermelon ~ I was hoping to get a huge one for future increase in BOOST. I was looking as the MSD BTM PDF file. The instruction how to has as not changed since I installed my MSD6AL. www.msdignition.com/pdf/6%20series/6series.pdfEverything will rewire the same. Except the new installation on the Dial of 0* to 3* manual detonation control. MSD Tech support says, two fuel maps will work and their product should elminate the fatal knock. MSD BTM self adjust to the dynamics of boost automatically. Cool huh. Here is a link how I installed my MSD6AL. trunks069.tripod.com/Celica/MSD_6_AL.htmYou are right ` large turbo will lag as would switching to larger wheels from 13" to 17" but considering that I have the same amount of a CCs as a 3sgte (stock) and a wider N/A setup. I dont think I will encouter lag with a huge watermelon be sucked by a straw.... My engine NA setup can suck WaterMelons. ;D Not braggin just a figure of speech. Referring to Phill6751. If I am increasing Boost dont I have to increase fuel equally? Currently, I dont know where I am at since my plugs are still coated white using 3sgte plugs. My setup now ~ I am getting way much too air. My full dump isnt enough at 5volt trigger from the ECU. Do I need heavier Poundage / CCs injectors? I believe with my currenty setup if I got bigger injectors used for 3sgte aftermarkets I may get more HP with 50/50 a/f mixture ratios as I increase RPMs. Where am I stoichlyThe cheap version under 60bucks autometer STOICH is not that accurate. My turbo reseller told me that in order to really truely findout my a/f mixture ratios will nearly cost 400 dollars plus. It's a DYNO test stoich meter using a wideband~02 method. The kit requires you to put in their OS2 Sensor before your CAT. I am hoping it will not require another OS ..... www.widebandcommander.com/My concern is with my setup ~ if I increase my injectors will I run very rich at the low end? I guess thats what my FE is made for ~ Out of he hole cuz of low end setup. And how will I run at Wide Open Throttle at 6500 RPMs. Will A/F be balanced? So in order for me to see where I am at I have to upgrade my autometer to widebandcommander. As I think of the detonation process A/F. MSD BTM will only control the spark during boost at optimum... but I will need to control the fuel levels equal to the amount of boosting. Do I still need a piggy back my ECU to control the different fuel levels or just having bigger injectors will do. A/F must be recipical at all levels of boosting in the combustion chamber. I hope to see what widebandcommander will tell me where is my A/F really at. Please all keep your comments coming.
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Post by White87GT on Apr 22, 2005 23:37:33 GMT -5
Joel, why a T-28 instead of a T-25? The 25 is smaller, and many many DSM owners are getting rid of them as they upgrade.
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