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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 19, 2005 14:16:14 GMT -5
Well, I want to correct myself. It isnt the BOV that regulates the PSI into the throttle body. Its the WasteGate Actuator and the springs tension in it. In order to make this project work. I can get different springs for the WasteGate at 5PSI, 10PSI,15PSI, to 25PSI springs. Retails: $499.99 USD. The blitz has a 4channel stage boost controller settings. You can program like switching to a radio station of your choice to any PSI level. But you will be limited on the fuel maps you can program ~limitation of your ECU. I believe our fuel maps is two stage on FE .. So on the blitz boost controller you can only program two channels equal to your ECU limits. The BOOST CONTROLLER Blitz SBCID III regulate the boost from your WasteGate. What it does it tricks / regulates the spring tension in the WasteGate Actuator controlling the BOOST PSI into the engine. The BOV actuates only when you let off the gas and so that the PSI doesnt slam into the Closed Butterfly of your throttle body. Having increased boost.. I will need to upgrade the CC injectors probably to 3SGTE aftermarket type. I will need to research. Also, I will need to get a aftermarket PiggyBack ECU to ride on top off my stock ecu to change a fuel MAPS ~increased fuel map managment. Technically, it should work without with a piggyback ecu cause our stock 3sfe ecu is a two map position managing the stock CCs Injectors at lower CCs / Pounds Per Hour. Reason I state piggyback ecu I want to get more out air/fuel mixture with increased injectors. I think our stock for FE is 325CCs. I will need 650CC injectors..... So now I am researching aftermarket piggyback ECU two stage fuel mappings.. Please offer your suggestions. I believe it is possible to Turbo 3SFE once we discover the flaws of previous attemps.
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Post by White87GT on Apr 19, 2005 18:22:21 GMT -5
Well, I want to correct myself. It isnt the BOV that regulates the PSI into the throttle body. Its the WasteGate Actuator and the springs tension in it. In order to make this project work. I can get different springs for the WasteGate at 5PSI, 10PSI,15PSI, to 25PSI springs. You will also need a BOOST CONTROLLER. A Blitz SBCID III to regulate the boost. What it does it tricks / regulates the spring tension in the WasteGate Actuator controlling the BOOST PSI into the engine. The BOV actuates only when you let off the gas and so that the PSI doesnt slam into the Closed Butterfly of your throttle body. I believe the Turbo 3SFE will work now..... IMO, still not going to work. Not unless you have the TPS/Fuel issue corrected. It's knock/detonation that kills most boosted engines.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 19, 2005 19:04:07 GMT -5
Well, I want to correct myself. It isnt the BOV that regulates the PSI into the throttle body. Its the WasteGate Actuator and the springs tension in it. In order to make this project work. I can get different springs for the WasteGate at 5PSI, 10PSI,15PSI, to 25PSI springs. You will also need a BOOST CONTROLLER. A Blitz SBCID III to regulate the boost. What it does it tricks / regulates the spring tension in the WasteGate Actuator controlling the BOOST PSI into the engine. The BOV actuates only when you let off the gas and so that the PSI doesnt slam into the Closed Butterfly of your throttle body. I believe the Turbo 3SFE will work now..... hey, don't forget to take pics and stuff so you can do a tutorial on this ....if it all works well I might just do it myself too ...but it sounds like the project would cost in the $2,000 range and as much as $3,000 depending on how much the rebuild really costs, and weather you go with used parts or all brand new stuff. Most are ebay guesstimates... $600 manifold in the link $200 FMIC $200 Turbo kit $200 BOV $500 piston/ring set $100-400 Turbo Timer $80 head mill $$$$ rebuild labor = 1880 to 2180 and I'm probabliy missing some parts too I'm not way overestimating the pistons/ring set am I? There shouldn't be a whole lot else in this setup that I can think of aside from hoses/pipes that should come with the turbo kit.
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 19, 2005 20:02:12 GMT -5
IMO, still not going to work. Not unless you have the TPS/Fuel issue corrected. It's knock/detonation that kills most boosted engines. Dude you are so CORRECT!!! Bingo. I just got home from work and I couldnt finish the rest but, I am planning on writing this book out. www.toyotanation.com/forum/archive/topic/24255-1.htmlIn order control the knock that you state. I will need piggy back stand alone ECU / MSD BTM. This piggy back ECU will retard detonation at Higher CCs during boost. I cant complete this full paragaph to go into details about MAPS just yet. I will need to find out how much CCs are my stock injectors for a 3SFE. My stock ECU can NOT handle the boost alone ~ I will need a piggy back ECU with UNI CHIP or MSD BTM like these Mitisubitchia Esclipse run at 25 to 30 PSI using Turbonetics T28s. I know its a Garrette but that one is equal to a Turbonetic T28. See that copper thingy on the turbo? Its the internal WasteGate. He He He He. A quick search of a Piggy back ECU for a Matrix. The Uni-chip engine control unit (ECU) boosts power and improves fuel efficiency. And because it's custom-programmable, it's a building block for later enhancements and modifications. www.diynetwork.com/diy/ab_parts_accessories/article/0,2021,DIY_13690_3081612,00.html www.wildcardsperformance.com/toyota%20jdm%20motors.htmI have the MSD 6AL. After searching, I will not need the piggyback ECU setup. I will need the MSD BTM for turbo and supercharger applicatioins. Ha, I wont need the UNI CHIP Piggyback ECU!!!!. Oh shit, what am I do to with my MSD 6AL? www.drivewerks.com/catalog/shopcart/PERF/POR_PERF_msdign_pg4.htmMSD 6BTM, PN 6462 The 6 BTM is ideal for engines with a turbo or supercharger. Not only will the engine benefit from MSD’s full power CD sparks, but there is also an adjustable boost/timing retard circuit to prevent detonation. When your supercharger (turbo or blower) forces the air/fuel ratio into the engine, the cylinder pressure inside the combustion chamber increases. The result is a great amount of power but this can also lead to detonation which can result in severe engine damage. The 6 BTM lets you dial away detonation by retarding the timing in relation to the boost pressure. By electronically controlling the ignition timing your engine can run on the threshold of detonation to obtain maximum power and efficiency. The BTM features a dash mounted control knob that lets you adjust the amount of timing retard. It can be adjusted from 0° per pound of boost to 3° per pound. The boost pressure is monitored by a sensor built into the MSD. The 6 BTM also shares the Soft Touch Rev Control of the 6AL Ignition for overrev protection. The BTM is supplied with rubber shock mounts and rpm modules for 3,000, 6,000, 7,000 and 8,000 rpm. MSD 6 BTM Ignition Control w/Boost Timing Master, 4, 6 (even-fire only) and 8-Cylinder PN 6462 NOTE: Not compatible with distributorless systems. NOTE: With an MSD 6 Ignition, some factory and aftermarket tachometers and fuel injection systems may require an MSD Tach/EFI Adapter. OPERATING SPECIFICATIONS Operating Voltage: +10-18 VDC Negative Ground Current Requirements: 5 Amps-5,000 RPM 10 Amps-10,000 RPM RPM Range: 15,000 RPM with 14.4 Volts Spark Duration: 20° Crankshaft Rotation Energy Output Max: 105-115 mJ Per Spark Weight and Size: 3 lbs, 8"Lx4"Wx2.25"H Voltage Output Max: Primary: 460-480 Volts Secondary: 45,000 Volts (Blaster Coil) Using Turbonetics T28s I will only need 7PSI. Get a MSD BTM + the blitz boost controller. 7PSI from the T28 is alot compared to the GTEs CT26.
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 19, 2005 20:43:03 GMT -5
hey, don't forget to take pics and stuff so you can do a tutorial on this ....if it all works well I might just do it myself too ...but it sounds like the project would cost in the $2,000 range and as much as $3,000 depending on how much the rebuild really costs, and weather you go with used parts or all brand new stuff. Most are ebay guesstimates... $600 manifold in the link $200 FMIC $200 Turbo kit $200 BOV $500 piston/ring set $100-400 Turbo Timer $80 head mill $$$$ rebuild labor = 1880 to 2180 and I'm probabliy missing some parts too I'm not way overestimating the pistons/ring set am I? There shouldn't be a whole lot else in this setup that I can think of aside from hoses/pipes that should come with the turbo kit. Actually Im going to buy a rebuilt engine that I saw on ebay and have it shipped over to Jeremy's House. Sike I bettter ask him first attempting this project. cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968259530&category=33615Get the engine first. JDM FE. 2nd step: Strengthen the internals. First is getting stronger RODS to hold down the head from blowing off the block. Strengthen the HEAD~ GTE Valve Springs, Forged Pistons, stronger beams, stronger crank. Stronger internals for more boost. 3rd, Modify the block to turbo oil line circulation to turbo and oilpan. Then install turbonetics manifold. 600 bucks. 4th. Do the plumbing like berad celica in that picture you see him using GE manifold. Actually that setup allows better intercooling. Not only that FE manifold with berad setup will work too. Anint no different than does Honda and Mitsbitchai eclips sporting around. 5th ~ have the engine dyno tested before installing in my car. I am expecting this project not to be cheap. I blew 2200 dollars in 3minutes when I bought a F-16 Jet R/C. It took off and noised dive because the jet was out range from my RC controller. Thats another story. 6th ~ cross my fingers I don't become another statistic like previous FE Turbos.
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Post by 4thgenceli on Apr 19, 2005 21:25:52 GMT -5
:prepares the gun for a proper 21 gun salute to Joel's engine:
:prepares to write out a check to him if it actually works:
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 19, 2005 21:28:23 GMT -5
:prepares the gun for a proper 21 gun salute to Joel's engine: :prepares to write out a check to him if it actually works: Hey if a honda with a 1.7cc engine can do it. why not a FE at 2.0cc. Really, I think the MSD BTM is the answer to regulate our F uped stock ECUs.
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Post by White87GT on Apr 19, 2005 21:50:29 GMT -5
Just a note - The T-28 at 25 PSI is fucking pointless. Most DSM owners don't run them past 15 PSI, and then they're at the top of their flow capacity.
Joel - Don't forget the shitty headgasket that we have. And rods, and pistons, and bearings, and crank, and...etc.
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 19, 2005 22:12:03 GMT -5
Just a note - The T-28 at 25 PSI is fucking pointless. Most DSM owners don't run them past 15 PSI, and then they're at the top of their flow capacity. Joel - Don't forget the shitty headgasket that we have. And rods, and pistons, and bearings, and crank, and...etc. Yeah ~ out of this project I am only expecting to use 7PSI even though the option of 25/30PSI is there. Think the wastegate is the answer with the MSD BTM? Thus, I am regulating the PSI requirments and I am solving the knock detonation with the MSD BTM. I wont need piggyback ecu. I still will need larger injectors if I want to make more usage of T28s.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 19, 2005 23:08:16 GMT -5
Yeah ~ out of this project I am only expecting to use 7PSI even though the option of 25/30PSI is there. Think the wastegate is the answer with the MSD BTM? Thus, I am regulating the PSI requirments and I am solving the knock detonation with the MSD BTM. I wont need piggyback ecu. I still will need larger injectors if I want to make more usage of T28s. Even if you use the MSD BTM to retard the timing to prevent detonation, don't you still need a way to get MORE fuel to the engine aside from larger injecters? I mean, the whole point of a turbo is to get more air in the cylinders so more fuel can be pressed, and if the ECU doesn't have the piggyback it's not going to give any more fuel than it normally would...would it? There just seems to be something missing if you don't piggyback.
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 19, 2005 23:46:45 GMT -5
Even if you use the MSD BTM to retard the timing to prevent detonation, don't you still need a way to get MORE fuel to the engine aside from larger injecters? I mean, the whole point of a turbo is to get more air in the cylinders so more fuel can be pressed, and if the ECU doesn't have the piggyback it's not going to give any more fuel than it normally would...would it? There just seems to be something missing if you don't piggyback. I dont have a answer. I would think Bigger injectors would mean stronger fuel pump. As for the piggyback ECU... *cracks knuckles* Do you mean it regulating how much fuel to be injected. This is where that damn rule about larger CCs have something to do with that OHM resistance law and, I remember Jeremy stating this a while back in his threads months ago. This forum doesnt keep it base a year back that I am aware of. Im still researching and I will be searching through 4gc Jeremy's How To archivals. Now you got me thinking. Blitz for boost control, MSD BTM for Detonation, Hmmmmmmm...... piggyback ECU for fuel maps for larger injectors? Darn, not that Im only desiging a FE turbo. Im also brained farted integratind Active Directory with Novel eDirectory to SUSE LDAPs. Just had a brain fart sorry. HELP.
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Post by White87GT on Apr 19, 2005 23:56:29 GMT -5
For fuel - Larger injectors (440 cc/min range? Whatever the 5S-FTE'ers use), larger fuel pump, and some range of control over these.
Then the internals - Metal HG STRONG pistons STRONG rods STRONG block STRONG crank/bearings
Then the other's: Oil lines for the turbo exhaust intake refabricated intercooler? Probably a REALLY good idea colder spark plugs
I'm sure that I'm missing some stuff, but the biggest hurdles are the fact that we have NO fuel maps for this, and the damned thing doesn't control the fuel precisly enough for the boost.
Blah.
Oh yeah, a really good knock sensor.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 20, 2005 0:01:36 GMT -5
I dont have a answer. I would think Bigger injectors would mean stronger fuel pump. As for the piggyback ECU... *cracks knuckles* Do you mean it regulating how much fuel to be injected. This is where that damn rule about larger CCs have something to do with that OHM resistance law and, I remember Jeremy stating this a while back in his threads months ago. This forum doesnt keep it base a year back that I am aware of. Im still researching and I will be searching through 4gc Jeremy's How To archivals. Now you got me thinking. Blitz for boost control, MSD BTM for Detonation, Hmmmmmmm...... piggyback ECU for fuel maps for larger injectors? Darn, not that Im only desiging a FE turbo. Im also brained farted integratind Active Directory with Novel eDirectory to SUSE LDAPs. Just had a brain fart sorry. HELP. Yeah, I don't have an answer either...I just thought I'd get you thinking before you go ahead then figure out you're boosting but it isn't helping your HP any like a turbo is supposed to do. You may very well be right that the larger injectors will give more fuel with the ohm deal, but I would think that larger injectors just means that they are "capable" of injecting more fuel and that the ECU would still tell them to inject the same amount they would in n/a form....Don't take my words alone, but it's just something you _may_ want to look at...since I really don't know jack when it comes to this...I just know about physics and that if you don't have more fuel to supplement the more air, you won't get any real HP gains....especially if all you're doing is retarding the timing to prevent detonation which in turn may even reduce HP ME lol
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 20, 2005 0:17:02 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't have an answer either...I just thought I'd get you thinking before you go ahead then figure out you're boosting but it isn't helping your HP any like a turbo is supposed to do. You may very well be right that the larger injectors will give more fuel with the ohm deal, but I would think that larger injectors just means that they are "capable" of injecting more fuel and that the ECU would still tell them to inject the same amount they would in n/a form....Don't take my words alone, but it's just something you _may_ want to look at...since I really don't know jack when it comes to this...I just know about physics and that if you don't have more fuel to supplement the more air, you won't get any real HP gains....especially if all you're doing is retarding the timing to prevent detonation which in turn may even reduce HP ME lol As I know.. **thinking** the ECU doesnt care about the size of the injectors. ECU will tell when to inject not how much to inject. And thats where the size of installed injectors can limits the fuel injection. Being that stated, take this into account. No matter what size of your injectors. You only use 20% to 80% and never the full 100% capacity of your injector size. So if your injectors is 600CCs you will only use 20% to 80% from idle to full dump at 80% injector useage. This rule also applies to fuel injecotrs in the afterburner of the F-14 TOMCAT. I would assume it applies to our domestic /import turbo car setups. The FE project maps I need is for FE is idle and FULL DUMP fuel injection which is the two setting on the TPS. As for the MSD BTM ~ it will not decrease detonation / reducing HP. Its design is to retard /advance perfect detonation in the dynamics of boost. Here is another plus. It doesnt require adjustment of cams which is sweets since most vvti as per example fail due to hydraulic failure. And people wonder why they have knocking.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 20, 2005 1:31:18 GMT -5
As for the MSD BTM ~ it will not decrease detonation / reducing HP. Its design is to retard /advance perfect detonation in the dynamics of boost. The reason I would imagine it would reduce the HP is by this...if you put more air in the cylinder with the same amount of fuel as you would with the less air....wouldn't the MSD retard the timing to try to prevent detonation, which would actually reduce HP if not flat out carry the same horsepower as without the turbo/boost? I mean if you retard the timing so the piston travels further up the cylinder until the spark is sent, then all you're doing is burning the same amount of fuel at a higher compression....you aren't really burning MORE fuel in this circumstance. Like I said earlier, I don't know think I know WTF i'm talking about....just my 2 cents. It's always good to learn something new anyway.
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