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Post by blck87gtconv on Apr 13, 2005 13:58:17 GMT -5
It's also higher compression, and who knows if the FE ECU has maps for afm readings up that high...? Can the FE AFM even count that high? Yes.. if not, the AFM's are swappable. Very easy to get over that hurdle.
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Post by CodingParadox on Apr 13, 2005 14:20:14 GMT -5
... Well, you could swap it with a donkey, and it'd be just as useful to your ECU as with a different AFM. The point is that the stock airbox is only useful to a certain air level, which is the most the ECU is made to read for. If you swap in a different AFM that has a different voltage range, the ECU will be completely out of tune and you probably won't even be able to idle, much less run any power and/or boost.
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Post by buzzbomber87gts on Apr 13, 2005 14:39:24 GMT -5
... Well, you could swap it with a donkey, and it'd be just as useful to your ECU as with a different AFM. The point is that the stock airbox is only useful to a certain air level, which is the most the ECU is made to read for. If you swap in a different AFM that has a different voltage range, the ECU will be completely out of tune and you probably won't even be able to idle, much less run any power and/or boost. not true. the afm is adjustable. swapping to a 5mge afm with stock ecu will make the car run mega rich because it sends fuel maps for 6 cylinders and cant push the air. the dial on the inside of the afm can be tuned using an a/f ratio guage. leaning out the mixture while having the massive afm supporting it actually makes more power over stock.....esp. when swapping to a bigger throttle body
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Post by CodingParadox on Apr 13, 2005 15:00:26 GMT -5
The AFM certainly is adjustable... And if you move it beyond 5-10% of the stock level, you start really messing up your mixtures... But if you wanna mess with that, go for it.
I'm done arguing about this, since I think it's the stupidest fucking idea ever to swap to a different AFM. It's not what your ECU wants, and it's just wrong.
In an N/A engine, you're just going to lose power instead of blowing up your engine, but if you're running boost, where mixtures actually matter, then you'll blow up your engine like you deserve.
I'm not answering any more AFM stupidity on here. It has nothing to do with my post's subject, and I don't care to reply anymore.
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Post by dansgts on Apr 13, 2005 17:16:41 GMT -5
codingparadox, if you want, go ahead and start a new thread and i'll lock this one, we don't need the arguments here and they will not be tolerated. this is the last warning...
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Post by CodingParadox on Apr 13, 2005 17:24:55 GMT -5
Nah, it's cool. As I said, I'm done here talking about AFM nonsense. If buzzbomber posts again keeping it going, lock it and I'll start again if I care, but the purpose of this thread is complete.
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Post by Jeremy on Apr 13, 2005 21:41:23 GMT -5
ok I have just gotten to this topic & there is alot of bogus info in here.
First of all The ONLY advantage to switching to a MAP system is that you do not have a restriction in the intake from the AFM/MAF.
I'm sure that what CodingParodox is doing is he is creating a conversion box that converts the MAP signals into AFM signals & relays it to the computer in the correct format.
It in no way will change your A/F ratios or make it safer for boost.
In fact it has allready been done. HKS did this in the early 90's it's called a HKS VPC you can buy them for ST165 & ST185. VPC standing for Vein Pressure Converter. Map sensors & AFM's have very similiar signals.
The advantage in doing a MAP conversion is that there is less restriction in the intake stream, the intake sounds real cool without a AFM, & the AFM is ugly.
lots of ppl would love to get rid of the flappy door afm because that flappy door can be unreliable & inaccurate under hard acceleration & under boost & for the above reasons.
The only questions or concerns I have is how he is compiling the data on the sensor output. I think the only true way would be to wire up a map sensor on the car he is making the conversion on with the AFM in place & get a datalogger to log both the sensors signals at the same time along with TPS & RPM so he can effectively make a lookup table or a graph so he can program his converter with 100% accurate data, otherwise the product will be no more safe than all the AFM mods ppl do.
I am optimistic to see what his results are. But I would think twice before purchasing a system like this without seeing some hard data showing that it will be accurate. Without seeing this hard data & proof it would be like the lottery.
Also the TPS has nothing to do with the map sensor. basically this system if I am correct would be a brain box that the AFM connector would plug into & the MAP sensor would plug into it. & that's about it. It would do nothing to the ECU or TPS or anything of that sort. Please codingparadox correct me if I'm wrong.
Also I beleive what you all are talking about with the 3S-FE 2 dimensional TPS being unsafe to be turboed comes from a post I made a long time ago on celica.net. I learned the hardway about turboing a 3S-FE.. The TPS on a 3S-FE basically controls which fuel & ignition map it is in. They are actually several maps in a 3S-FE TCCS ECU.. For instance, there is a cold start map, a open loop map(idle-99% throttle) also another open loop map for (WOT), closed loop map (idle-99% throttle) and (WOT). So there are several maps. The problem with the 3S-FE design is that it uses a 2 dimensional TPS which has figures for only idle & then WOT. It has no compensation for heavy or light load other than it's AFM input. While that is fine for the production engine 3S-FE that is not fine for a engine that is subjected to high temperatures & pressures of a turbo. A turbocharged car must be more finely tuned to run correctly.
Also the early 3S-FE block has a 3 rib strengthening design that does make it weaker than a 3S-GE or 3S-GTE which have 7 rib blocks. But the later 3S-FE adopted the 7 rib block. & even at that the ribs in the block only do their function when something breaks anyways.
The picture that Joel has posted is a PYTHON Remanufacted air flow meter but it is not a flappy door afm, it is a Karman style Air flow meter. The Karman style AFM is used on the 7M-GTE, 1UZ-FE & a couple other toyota engines. they are less restrictive and way more accurate than a flappy door. Dynamictuner was making claims that the 7M-GTE AFM was a direct replacement for the flappy door, he was totally wrong & made a completly uneducated claim.
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Post by CodingParadox on Apr 13, 2005 22:02:27 GMT -5
In general, yes. For the direct conversion itself, this is the _only_ advantage. Bingo. Safer for boost, true. Can't change stuff, not true. Since I'm doing the conversion in my chip, I can add alteration maps into the conversion mix. Essentially it's an AFC and MAP conversion in one, if people so choose. Yep. You seen the price tag on the VPC? Mmm, 900$. Couldn't have said it better myself. I have a setup in labview doing exactly that and have taken over 20,000 data points, of which I have fitted a nice function to it. I plan to take dyno runs with it and without it to prove equivalent A:F ratios. Basically correct. It'll actually be a little thing to splice into the wiring harness at the ECU. You'll be able to just clip the AFM wires anywhere you want or just unplug it and leave the clip hanging there, and hook into the few appropriate wires at the ECU with the brainbox. Yeah, my basic summary is that you can't drop in replacement AFMs other than the stock one without some serious modification to the output signal. A karmannvortex style AFM especially won't drop in.
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Post by Jeremy on Apr 13, 2005 22:13:44 GMT -5
just to add to this I completely agree with CodingParadox, putting a AFM from another engine onto your engine is a completely stupid idea. You talk about using a 5M-GE AFM & saying that it calculates air for a 6 cyl. That is a false statement all together. All a Air flow meter does is calculate air flow based on how much the flap is open. it has no idea whether it's on a 2 stroke lawnmower or on a 16 cylinder ferrari. it's a sensor & all it does is measure air flow & relay that data to the ECU for deciphering.
All afms have different output voltages for a given flow... Some can come very close but they will not be the exact same.
For instance 200CFM of air flow on a 5M-GE AFM may be 2.6v output while on a 4A-GE AFM the same flow may be 2.8v so the 4A-GE ECU would think you have less flow because it is programmed with the 4A-GE AFM output map. There is no way to accurately make a AFM off another engine put out the same voltages at the same flow rates. I suggest before doing any modifications to your engine control system you do alot or research. not just I spent 20 mins on google. I mean months researching & testing. otherwise your gonna end up with a blown engine.
ONE KEY THING YOU ARE NOT REALIZING WHEN YOU SAY THIS
BY DOING THIS YOU ARE NOT JUST CHANGING YOUR A/F MIXTURES YOU ARE CHANGING YOUR IGNITION TIMING.
you can run as rich as you want but if your ignition is way too advanced your engine will still go boom.
I need to write a damn book on TCCS operation & theory.
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Post by CodingParadox on Apr 13, 2005 22:20:01 GMT -5
This is the huge problem with doing much in the way of changing fuel tables on the MAP conversion. If I do any changes to the alteration table in the MAP conversion, they'll be very minor.
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Post by Jeremy on Apr 13, 2005 22:23:16 GMT -5
yea, that is what set off alarms for me is that you were adding a AFC feature. because your system is still limited to the set perameters of the 3S-FE ECU. So while the AFC is a good idea it's just not practicle with the 3S-FE ECU.
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Post by CodingParadox on Apr 13, 2005 22:26:34 GMT -5
Yeah, but I want to include it so that when I market this to other cars than celicas, it will be both an AFC and a MAP conversion. Many other cars don't have to worry about their timing jumping up with fueling changes, so this will be a huge selling point. On celicas, both FE, GE, and GTE, leaning out increases timing, so it's not exactly a very useful feature.
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Post by buzzbomber87gts on Apr 14, 2005 9:16:26 GMT -5
I guess I'll stop trying to prove a point....I give in....how much you want for them cookies anyways? I might just hang one off a chain and wear it
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