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Post by White87GT on Jul 29, 2004 14:26:23 GMT -5
Well, I have aquired a GT-S. Its kinda in modding condition, I need to take care of some minor issues first. But, anyways, here's my thoughts on this project. I want yours, because I'm stupid. Alright, this thing has 156K on it, and it probably should be rebuilt before I shove compressed air into it. I could just run it till it blows up, but, nah. The goals for this car are simple. It's my daily driver, and has to function in that capacity. I dont mind downtime while building it, but once it's running, it needs to be reliable. That means that I'm not going for crazy power levels. I want to get into AutoX and some drag racing. I want a car that will respond in any gear, at any RPM. Lag sucks, and I dont want any. This car has to be able to be driven on the street as well as the track, with the same powerband and power. If anything, this car will be more like a Tounge car than anything. Quick, with amazing handling and usable power. The suspension will be upgraded accordingly. Now, for the car. The transmission doesn't really have good synchros, and it's probably on it's way out. I will be replacing it, probably with a transmission from a ST or GT. I want the higher gearing, and I need the starter to be relocated to the other side of the exhaust manifold. The question is, what can I have done to the tranny to hold the boost? Think 250 HP max, and thats probably on the high side. Oh yeah, I want the synchro problem fixed. What do you guys recommend? The car has a new OEM clutch that's got about 10K on it, that will be upgraded with the transmission. I'm not sure to what, but the clutch will be able to handle the power levels of the car. Ok, now that we've talked about the drivetrain, lets talk about the actual GE that's in this thing. I've given the setup some thought, and this is what I've come up with. There will probably be some compatablity issues, but this is what I have so far. ST165 intake manifold, I'll leave the T-VIS in place. I plan on letting it help me in the higher RPM's anyways. ST165 exhaust manifold. It should clear with the starter moved to the other side of the manifold. As for turbo, I want something comparable to a T25 or a 14B. Those are the stock turbos on a DSM, and they have little lag. I figure that I'll hook them up through a custom mount of some sort. If anyone has a better turbo that they think will work better, let me know. Essentially, I want the turbo to help the engine get into T-VIS range and then let the T-VIS take over. The GE is REV happy enough as it is. I might just make a custom T-VIS controller, and set it to open up as the turbo runs out of power around 5K. That might work as well. Either way, the turbo needs to make power down low and pull the car out of the hole. As for intercooling, I figured I would hook up a MKIII Supra side mount somewhere. Maybe move the battery to the trunk, as that would give me some more usable room in the engine bay. As for fuel, who knows? Supra 440C injectors? Maybe some 550's? As for fuel controlling, S-AFC II. The car will have a Turbo timer put on it, to help with the reliablity and longlivity of the turbo. As for boost, I'm thinking 7-10 PSI. Whatever is safe on stock internals. jeremy, any thoughts? The exhaust will be custom made, probably 2.5 inches all the way back with a high flow cat. I would go to 3, but I want the torque down low. I could completely have this backwards though. As far as the gauges go, I want a 3 pod on the A-piller with Oil pressure, Water temp, and boost. Any other sugguestions or help there? Emissions are not a problem, as KY does not have them. I could care less what comes out the tailpipe of this thing, as it's behind me. That's really all I've thought of so far. Keep in mind that this car probably needs ~1k in basic stuff before I can start thinking about this project. Target date to start this thing is November, and I'll slowly start getting parts while I wait. If anyone has any ideas about any part of this project, let me know. This should be a fun project. Sorry about the book that I just wrote, but I was bored. :-*For teh GT-S.
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Post by DLBgt on Jul 29, 2004 21:45:49 GMT -5
A far as boost i have a little experience but in my opinion i would only run about 6-7 psi on stock internals, but again just my opinion.
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Post by Joel87GT on Jul 29, 2004 22:05:13 GMT -5
Relocate starter? Hmm Nascar / F1 setup. Stock 3sge internals.. I heard it can take up to 12PSI boost. Fully modded N/A setup... 24PSI. Nice book - just in aftermarket engine parts I read about 15Grand for your project. HKS, Greedy, Crowler, TRD packages..frekin works. Damn, this be a nice project to start from crankshaft, to head, exhaust system. All I can say you be doing allot of custom welds esp. for turbo intercooler. Did you hit the lotto?
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Post by garbled on Jul 29, 2004 22:43:04 GMT -5
Why would he have to weld the intercooler? He could do the whole thing with just samco hose.
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Post by White87GT on Jul 29, 2004 22:55:39 GMT -5
Relocate starter? Hmm Nascar / F1 setup. Stock 3sge internals.. I heard it can take up to 12PSI boost. Fully modded N/A setup... 24PSI. Nice book - just in aftermarket engine parts I read about 15Grand for your project. HKS, Greedy, Crowler, TRD packages..frekin works. Damn, this be a nice project to start from crankshaft, to head, exhaust system. All I can say you be doing allot of custom welds esp. for turbo intercooler. Did you hit the lotto? I think you read a little to much man. The 3S-FE tranny will relocate the starter. The 3S-GE's is under the exhaust manifold. That should give me the room for the turbo and turbo exhuast manifold. As far as internals, I'd just prefer not to touch them. I might not rebuild before I boost, as the engine is in REALLY good shape for the milage. I'm hoping to do it all for ~4K.
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Post by White87GT on Jul 29, 2004 22:59:10 GMT -5
As for the intercooler, if I do have some cash, it's FMIC with an aeroform front bumper. If not, it's the Supra side mount mounted where the battery is now. I might use the stock intake piping to bring it air.
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Post by Flyin_Bryan on Jul 29, 2004 23:22:36 GMT -5
There is no way in hell this would cost 15k . As for turbocharging a -GE, you already know what i think. A low mileage or rebuilt S-53 will most likely work for you. Just don't abuse it too much. Running a -GE manifold might make the intercooler plumbing simpler, all depends on how you route it. I don't know anything about dsm turbos, so no help here. Maybe invest in a CT-20b(stock on a ST-205), Any all-trac owner who has one swears by it. And if you decide to do this right(3S-GTE swap)later on, the CT-20b will swap right over(need 2nd gen gte ex. manifold) T-VIS is for low end torque man. It limits the amount of air below ~3500rpm, Might want to leave that alone Mk.3 intercooler is kind of weird, both inlet an outlet are on the passinger side. Might be able to flip it over so the pipes are on the left side. Engine management, couldn't tell ya. The 1st gen GTE will only handle around 12psi, so i'm with DLB on the boost numbers. On turbo cars, the larger the exhaust, the better. Turbos work on the pressure difference between the manifold and the exhaust system. Ok i need to go to bed now.
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Post by White87GT on Jul 29, 2004 23:32:08 GMT -5
I figured that I could run the GTE intake manifold and route the plumbing the same way that it is on the stock 3S-GTE. I dont know though, with a front or side mount, it might be easier just to use the stock GE intake manifold.
Yup, I just figured with the T-VIS closed in the lower RPMS, and a turbo shoving air into it, that the low end torque would be increased, then the T-VIS would open up as the turbo full spooled and that would carry the engine to redline. It's basically just a theory at this point.
Hmm, I'll have to look at one. It was the first thing that came into mind when I thought about a cheap intercooler. I'll find something though. I just refuse to use a TMIC.
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Post by Jeremy on Jul 29, 2004 23:45:45 GMT -5
First of all when you are talking about a turbo, you only listen to people with experience as ppl without experience can steer you in the wrong way & cause a catastrophy. With that said I am going to give you some advice based on experience. Take it for what you want but I beleive this would be the safest way to do it.
First thing i want to address is that, You need to rebuild that engine, bore it to 86.5mm make sure your machine shop has a automatic honing machine if you plan to use stock toyota rings, if you are going to use aftermarket rings like Total Seal then contact total seal to see the honing requirements for their rings to seat correctly. Next is pistons, I would get Some JE pistons made for it with 8.8:1 or 9:1 compression, I would also get a TTE headgasket for it. Now as far as electronics I would get either a ST165 3S-GTE harness & ECU, or even a ST185 harness & ECU, because the stock 3s-ge doesn't have any provisions for positive pressure. So you only have 2 choices really, 3S-GTE harness & ECU, & sensors. or full EMS, without going this way you will have certain disaster just like every person that has ever tried a turbo hybrid on a budget without proper electronics, & I might be able to get you the ST165 engine harness, ECU & all the sensor there is a alltrac at the jy & tomorrow is 1/2 price day at the JY. If those things are still there I will grab them for you. Also to address the turbo, the ST185 Ceramic JDM turbo has little to no lag & a capability of almost 300hp in stock trim. My ceramic ST185 CT26 will hit full spool by 2800rpms at 14psi. You will need the 3S-GTE injectors & everything else, also a 3S-GTE intake manifold, obviously the exhaust manifold, elbow. Also you have the wrong idea about TVIS. TVIS is only meant to help in the low RPMS, removing the TVIS plate will open up top end HP but will result in less low end torque, below 4200rpms 1 butterfly for each cylinder is closed to create a higher intake velocity, therefor increasing low end torque but once the TVIS starts creating a measureable resistance approx at 4200rpms it opens up to allow full flow. adjusting your TVIS open point will not create much hp, not worth it if your daily driving the car, if you were circuit racing the car & that 2hp could make a difference or if you were tuning your powerband for specifically a certain RPM or in a certain gear then that would be advised. But as a daily driver the TVIS is set at optimum point. In addition to your gauges listed you need a oil temp gauge & a wideband o2 sensor. Any other questions. Exhaust if you could pack 5" exhaust in there I would tell you to do it, I have full 3" exhaust front to back, awesome response, fast spool up. Intercooler recommendation in the short term would be the MKIII Supra front mount, in the long term ST185 RC or ST205 W:A IC. Stick with the GTS transmission & just relocate the starter to the other side by cutting the hole & drilling & tappin the threads. Have the GTS tranny rebuilt! Better ratio & car will be much quicker cause the ST GT tranny is built for mileage & with the 3S-GTE 170-180mph is easilly possible & none of us here wants you doing 170-180mph cause the slightest thing goes wrong & toms gone. the GTS tranny will still run like 140-150mph but will get there alot faster.
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Post by White87GT on Jul 29, 2004 23:57:09 GMT -5
Let's see...
1. I know the engine needs to be rebuilt. It's leaking oil as it is now, and that needs to be taken care of. As far as boring it out and new pistions, why? I dont understand. I understand the rebuild, but the aftermarket stuff? Just seems like to much to me.
The stock GE is at 9.2:1 CR. That should be low enough to take 7 or 8 psi of boost right? Why add if that can take it?
2. As far as electronics, what else do I need other than the stock stuff with a TT, S-AFC2, and a knock/detionation senor? Shouldn't that keep me out of trouble engine wise? Maybe the Turbo Pressure Sensor out of a GTE so that the GE ECU never sees boost?
3. The Supra intercooler should fit, right? I really just dont want to use a TMIC do to heat soak problems.
4. Exhaust, I was wrong in my origional post. Noise is an issue though. 3inch is about as big as I can go.
5. Turbo's. What can I get that will bolt to a ST165 manifold that will be cheap. As in, theres lots of them around......
6. How hard is it to relocate the starter?
7. I was kinda thinking gas milage when I stated that I wanted the ST/GT tranny. The GE is geared WAY low in my book. I guess we'll see how that goes. What can I do to make the thing bullet proof if I rebuild though? Cost isn't as much of an issue with the transmission. I need reliablity, and that's a big part that I dont want to break.
Big thanks to everyone for contributing. ;D
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Post by Joel87GT on Jul 30, 2004 0:31:47 GMT -5
Hybrid approach for ge to te can be costly. You better be off doing a 3sgte swap without all that modding to s-53 with P/P. You'd be happy. Didnt mean to scare ya on sticker price. Its funny how HP Gains = aftermarket parts / Labor.
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Post by White87GT on Jul 30, 2004 10:17:01 GMT -5
Hybrid approach for ge to te can be costly. You better be off doing a 3sgte swap without all that modding to s-53 with P/P. You'd be happy. Didnt mean to scare ya on sticker price. Its funny how HP Gains = aftermarket parts / Labor. Problem is man, with a swap, I'd still be doing all that modification to the S-53. I figure that I have enough to work with, so I might as well use this as a base. Even if I swapped, a rebuild would have to happen to the GTE.
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Post by Jeremy on Aug 1, 2004 2:50:05 GMT -5
Let's see... 1. I know the engine needs to be rebuilt. It's leaking oil as it is now, and that needs to be taken care of. As far as boring it out and new pistions, why? I dont understand. I understand the rebuild, but the aftermarket stuff? Just seems like to much to me. YEA make sure you do a rebuild but you absolutely need forged pistonsThe stock GE is at 9.2:1 CR. That should be low enough to take 7 or 8 psi of boost right? Why add if that can take it? Stock toyota pistons are junk, they are built with lowest cost in mind, while barely meeting the engines requirments, throwing 7-8psi of boost at it, you would have to have perfect timing & high fuel pressure cause if you hear it ping even if it only pings like a little tiny bit I guarantee within 50 miles you will crack the peice of junk toyota pistons 2. As far as electronics, what else do I need other than the stock stuff with a TT, S-AFC2, and a knock/detionation senor? Shouldn't that keep me out of trouble engine wise? Maybe the Turbo Pressure Sensor out of a GTE so that the GE ECU never sees boost? You are not going to run the GE ecu cause you will blow your engine with it. you don't need any other electronics3. The Supra intercooler should fit, right? I really just dont want to use a TMIC do to heat soak problems. Supra intercooler should fit with minor modification to the hood latch support bar.4. Exhaust, I was wrong in my origional post. Noise is an issue though. 3inch is about as big as I can go. 3" is the biggest that will fit on these cars & just barely, & the bigger you go the quieter it will get5. Turbo's. What can I get that will bolt to a ST165 manifold that will be cheap. As in, theres lots of them around...... only feasable choice is a ST165 CT26 or SUPRA CT266. How hard is it to relocate the starter? Not very hard if you know how to use a drill, a grinder, and a thread tap, then it's about an hr project7. I was kinda thinking gas milage when I stated that I wanted the ST/GT tranny. The GE is geared WAY low in my book. I guess we'll see how that goes. What can I do to make the thing bullet proof if I rebuild though? Cost isn't as much of an issue with the transmission. I need reliablity, and that's a big part that I dont want to break. Only thing you can really do to the tranny is put the new revised synchros in it put a phantom grip LSD & run some ATF with synchromesh additive or lucas oil stabilizerBig thanks to everyone for contributing. ;D
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Post by White87GT on Aug 1, 2004 18:16:31 GMT -5
Cool. Looks like I now have some direction for the project.
3S-GTE, probably gonna just be easier to strap that puppy in. Now I gotta find one.
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Post by GTRJDM on May 4, 2005 7:52:26 GMT -5
No there is another idea Supercharge it
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