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Post by jbone2322 on Mar 27, 2005 21:47:30 GMT -5
might i say, its good to have you back.
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Post by White87GT on Mar 27, 2005 22:24:15 GMT -5
So, Jeremy, about our little deal. I'll trade you my 3S-FE and auto tranny, you come put in your GTE and 5spd. Hurry up.
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Post by dansgts on Mar 27, 2005 22:29:32 GMT -5
hey tom, that sounds like a fare trade to me
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Post by White87GT on Mar 27, 2005 22:36:32 GMT -5
hey tom, that sounds like a fare trade to me I know. I even drew him a picture and made it my signature.
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Post by dansgts on Mar 27, 2005 22:38:53 GMT -5
I know. I even drew him a picture and made it my signature. well with the picture, don't you think your going a little out of your way??? i mean you should already be getting more than just a 5speed gte
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Post by 4thgenceli on Mar 28, 2005 10:22:26 GMT -5
Let me step in here The Camry v6 I am assuming your talking about a 1MZ-FE 3 litre all aluminum engine 92-97. This engine puts out 220hp is about 30% heavier than your 3S-FE, Therfor would be a good upgrade. But the engine mounts are 100% completely different because the camry uses a cradle that the engine bolts to the cradle & the cradle then bolts to the car. so only 2 motormounts actually attach to the frame of the car, and those mounts are completely different from any celicas engine mounts. it uses a dogbone mount on the passenger side instead of a typical celica engine mount. Lots of fabrication will go into just fitting the engine in the engine bay, let alone Exhaust, Custom PS lines, different PS pump, relocating the cooling fan, then the wiring will be a nightmare for someone who is not 100% familiar with wiring toyota engines. SO overall Theasability of a 1MZ-FE in a 4th gen about 20% The 3S-GTE which I have swapped countless times into 4th gens are relatively easy because there is no custom fabrication at all required to bolt them in. They literally bolt right in with every mount the same. The powersteering lines & all accessories hook right up with no problems. I know your looking for power. Well the 3S-GTE has it. here are the stock HP figures for all 8 versions of the 3S-GTE. ST165 88-89 Celica Alltrac 190HP ST185 90-93 Celica Alltrac 200HP US 225HP JDM ST185 90-93 Celica GT-FOUR Rally Car GRP A 300HP ST205 94-98 Celica GT-FOUR 265HP ST205 94-98 Celica GT-FOUR WRC 300HP ST215 99-2005 Caldina GT-FOUR 255HP Late 90's European Corolla GT-FOUR 265HP TRD 503 1992+ 3S-GTE used in competition 490HP For homogolation rules it was limited to 301HP but in full tune was 490HP. Finding a Grp A, WRC, or 503 engine is pretty hard & they are often at least twice the price of the regular engines. I own 3 4th gens all swapped with 3S-GTE's & the best bang for the buck is installing a JDM ST185 3S-GTE it has 225hp stock & adding a boost controller, and 0Fuel Cut Defenser can get you into the 260Hp range with no engine mods at all. That is over double the power you currently have. On my 86 GTS I decided to go with a JDM ST185 Rally Car GRP A engine & with small mods like boost controller set at 12psi, HKS cams, I was hitting 346hp on the dyno to the wheels. To give you an idea this is what it looks like. www.4gcelica.net/88turbo/pics/My Celica/86gts/thumbnails/IM000286.JPG [/img] Dollar for Dollar a 3S-GTE will own just about any toyota engine except a 2JZ-GTTE. [/quote] Listen to him, he knows his shit, I really doubt that a v6 will beat any of these engines...
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Post by blck87gtconv on Mar 30, 2005 2:07:37 GMT -5
Let's just leave out the low-end torque factor too, right?
There's more to power than horsepower.. and low end torque just will not be the same on a 220hp turbo i4.
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Post by garbled on Mar 30, 2005 14:19:00 GMT -5
What i have allways wondered about camry v6's is if you could swap them by getting the engine mountings off the different body from like an 87 camry v6.
The 87 camry had two models, 87 - 91 VCV21 SV21
The SV21 would have been the one with the 3SFE, and the VCV21 would have been the one with the V6. I've never looked at it very deeply.. but my guess is that you could strip engine mounting bits off the VCV21 model and apply them to the ST162 body.
I mean.. heck.. if the old corolla/celica types can mount a 1G-GTE or 2JZ-GTE in a 1970 corolla.. it doesn't seem that odd that you could adapt a camry v6 to a celica.
I don't know how toyota did things in the 80's, but in the 70's, they used to make one body, and then ship different crossmembers and mounting bits, to make it a T or R body. Though perhaps in the 80's they just decided it was just as easy to stamp out two wholly different bodies. That seems un-economical though.. certainly not what I would do if I was going to design a car with an engine option.
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Leusent
GT Crew
The Good Looking One
Posts: 274
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Post by Leusent on Mar 30, 2005 14:34:33 GMT -5
Let's just leave out the low-end torque factor too, right? There's more to power than horsepower.. and low end torque just will not be the same on a 220hp turbo i4. It is true that the V6 will (probably) have better low end torque. HP is a function of torque and RPM though. The point I am trying to drive here is, when it comes down to going fast HP is more important than torque. When a performance engine is built, torque is decidely sacrificed for higher end HP. Craig
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Post by blck87gtconv on Mar 30, 2005 16:12:48 GMT -5
It is true that the V6 will (probably) have better low end torque. HP is a function of torque and RPM though. The point I am trying to drive here is, when it comes down to going fast HP is more important than torque. When a performance engine is built, torque is decidely sacrificed for higher end HP. Craig Are you stupid? Haven't you ever heard the phrase, "torque wins races"? When building an engine, you want to maximize torque. If an engine puts out more torque at the same hp, don't you think it'll definitely pull harder? Go educate yourself.
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Leusent
GT Crew
The Good Looking One
Posts: 274
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Post by Leusent on Mar 30, 2005 22:16:07 GMT -5
Are you stupid? Haven't you ever heard the phrase, "torque wins races"? When building an engine, you want to maximize torque. If an engine puts out more torque at the same hp, don't you think it'll definitely pull harder? Go educate yourself. I <3 blck87gtconv The actual importance of Torque and HP is often misunderstood, and understandibly so. Its complicated. Torque "basically" the force your engine puts out (this is measured at the wheels). The harder your car pushes the faster it can go. Horsepower is "basically" how fast the torque can be dispensed. Torque is how hard to can turn something, and horsepower is how fast. "Horsepower is how fast your car hits the wall and torque is how hard"For example, take a rachet. If you are trying to get off a really stuck bolt, you push REALLY hard. You aren't going fast, are you? But you are pushing your hardest. So, if you're car has 1,000 foot pounds of torque, but can only turn at 5 RPM than you have lots of torque and no horsepower. Perfect example of this are big trucks hauling tons of things. They have like 15 gears and have to shift very quickly. Lets get technical. The length of your connecting rod (and depth of the crankshaft) can change torque/horsepower. The longer the rod, the more time an explosion can force it down. At low RPM, this is really effective. At higher RPM, the longer rod means that the piston travels faster; the explosion has to race the piston and cannot effectively push as hard. The celica has a 7300 RPM redline, pretty respectible. The engine has been tuned for higher HP because the engine revs higher. If you changed gears at the HP peak (where it is supposedly the best), and that peak were not around 7000 RPM, then the higher RPM would be pointless. And remember kids, the longer you can stay in a gear the better!!! But I digress, torque and horsepower and suited for different things. Small/medium sized japanese cars work better on HP, and big north americian cars like torque. There is just more car to move. It is my personal belief, that Celica engines were specifically tuned for HP (and not torque). Craig
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Post by blck87gtconv on Mar 30, 2005 22:27:34 GMT -5
I <3 blck87gtconv The actual importance of Torque and HP is often misunderstood, and understandibly so. Its complicated. Torque "basically" the force your engine puts out (this is measured at the wheels). The harder your car pushes the faster it can go. Horsepower is "basically" how fast the torque can be dispensed. Torque is how hard to can turn something, and horsepower is how fast. "Horsepower is how fast your car hits the wall and torque is how hard"For example, take a rachet. If you are trying to get off a really stuck bolt, you push REALLY hard. You aren't going fast, are you? But you are pushing your hardest. So, if you're car has 1,000 foot pounds of torque, but can only turn at 5 RPM than you have lots of torque and no horsepower. Perfect example of this are big trucks hauling tons of things. They have like 15 gears and have to shift very quickly. Lets get technical. The length of your connecting rod (and depth of the crankshaft) can change torque/horsepower. The longer the rod, the more time an explosion can force it down. At low RPM, this is really effective. At higher RPM, the longer rod means that the piston travels faster; the explosion has to race the piston and cannot effectively push as hard. The celica has a 7300 RPM redline, pretty respectible. The engine has been tuned for higher HP because the engine revs higher. If you changed gears at the HP peak (where it is supposedly the best), and that peak were not around 7000 RPM, then the higher RPM would be pointless. And remember kids, the longer you can stay in a gear the better!!! But I digress, torque and horsepower and suited for different things. Small/medium sized japanese cars work better on HP, and big north americian cars like torque. There is just more car to move. It is my personal belief, that Celica engines were specifically tuned for HP (and not torque). Craig While all this is true, more torque at the same hp is still better.. I don't care what your philosophy is.
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Post by Jeremy on Apr 5, 2005 1:01:41 GMT -5
well another thing you have to think about is that with the 3S-GTE it's one of the few engines out there that it's max torque is equal too or higher than it's HP figure & comes in at a relativly low RPM. a stock ST185 US in a 4th gen vs a IMZ-FE stock in a 4th gen the 3S-GTE would own it, in both low end acceleration & topend.
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89NWK
GT Crew
89 GT-S Liftback
Posts: 185
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Post by 89NWK on Apr 5, 2005 1:55:29 GMT -5
I <3 blck87gtconv The actual importance of Torque and HP is often misunderstood, and understandibly so. Its complicated. Torque "basically" the force your engine puts out (this is measured at the wheels). The harder your car pushes the faster it can go. Horsepower is "basically" how fast the torque can be dispensed. Torque is how hard to can turn something, and horsepower is how fast. "Horsepower is how fast your car hits the wall and torque is how hard"For example, take a rachet. If you are trying to get off a really stuck bolt, you push REALLY hard. You aren't going fast, are you? But you are pushing your hardest. So, if you're car has 1,000 foot pounds of torque, but can only turn at 5 RPM than you have lots of torque and no horsepower. Perfect example of this are big trucks hauling tons of things. They have like 15 gears and have to shift very quickly. Lets get technical. The length of your connecting rod (and depth of the crankshaft) can change torque/horsepower. The longer the rod, the more time an explosion can force it down. At low RPM, this is really effective. At higher RPM, the longer rod means that the piston travels faster; the explosion has to race the piston and cannot effectively push as hard. The celica has a 7300 RPM redline, pretty respectible. The engine has been tuned for higher HP because the engine revs higher. If you changed gears at the HP peak (where it is supposedly the best), and that peak were not around 7000 RPM, then the higher RPM would be pointless. And remember kids, the longer you can stay in a gear the better!!! But I digress, torque and horsepower and suited for different things. Small/medium sized japanese cars work better on HP, and big north americian cars like torque. There is just more car to move. It is my personal belief, that Celica engines were specifically tuned for HP (and not torque). Craig Very very true. I built and sometimes still do build drag engines. I myself have built and driven a 250 HP Lotus Elise. The car weighs roughly 2100lbs. With this car having such a low HP it can easily out run 5-6-700 HP cars,becuase it is geared perfect. HP and torque need to be relative to one another. But over all the 3S-GTE is easily comparable to the Subaru STI's boxer engine. Look at how the STI performs, 300 HP and it outruns 500 600 HP cars. Perfect torque and HP mixture.
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