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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 13, 2005 12:22:09 GMT -5
Okay, I split my question off to a separate thread from the MAF thread, I feel bad killing his thread with this question....
_IF_ you could replace the TPS with one that's more accurate(aka has more than 3(?) positions), even if it has to be fabricated, and you installed a hack between the ecu and the guages/other engine wires....maybe even give the ecu semi-fake readings for some things(maybe even just the tps position...just to make the ecu happy) then you should theoretically be able to get around the crappy TPS for the 3sfe...which I hear is the only true problem keeping it from being turboed.
After that, there's nothing else to keep the 3sfe from being turboed except for the engine rebuild, but hey if you can DIY rebuild, why not? Cheaper than swapping. I just thought it would be a pain in the ass to swap in a 3sgte, with all the parts, new trans, new ecu, mixing 2 wiring harnesses(or is it straight up just 3sgte harness required?)...I know it would be more work for whoever creates the ecu hack, but for someone installing it only need the new tps, hack, eng rebuild, turbo kit pretty much....and not worry about swapping.
Am I way off track or is that not a bad idea? I'm sure there's probably a few problems to encounter, but not as much as swapping the 3sgte in...at least I would hope so.
If it IS possible I think it would be an interesting project. I'm going to college for 4+ years to become a computer programmer, and I'm sure that making a hack would have a LOT to do with programming a microchip or something. I may have to take an electronics class or two but i doubt interception of signal, re-transmission, calculation, etc wouldn't be beyond something I could already do programming-wise.
PS. I hope this doesn't get moved to forced induction...as I'm sure my idea would have possible uses other than just for turbo. This is just a mod idea to allow a turbo(hopefully).
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Post by dansgts on Apr 13, 2005 12:51:22 GMT -5
moved to forced induction
It's not worth it to turbo a 3sfe, first, there is no kit available to turbo it, so you'll be looking at the cost of fabricating one, which will be about the same as getting a 3sgte, and all that work to go around swapping wont be worth it, you'll have a weaker less reliable engine in the end for more expensive.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 13, 2005 13:02:37 GMT -5
Well, the bigger question is would it work? I mean, I read somewhere in the forums that the 3sgt3 turbo manifold bolts right on, so a turbo kit wouldn't necisarilly require custom fab, maybe some clearance issues, but that's not really likely with the 3sfe from what I can tell. And if the hack idea works....after a microchip and unit is made, it should't be as much trouble to mass produce them(making that hard work only needed for the first time...esp if anyone else is interested, lol)
I guess there are a few other issues to resolve I suppose are why you're saying it would be weaker...
1)The crankshaft....can it handle the torque/horsepower
2)does a transmission fit the 3sfe that can handle the torque/horsepower.
There's probably a few more, but those are all of the major issues I can think of...Getting new pistons and rebuilding the eng/head should be enough to allow for a decent amount of boost shouldn't it? It's not like the 3sfe block differs a whole lot from the 3sge/gte...the head may be a problem, but doesn't a better head bolt on?....I guess the list is pretty big, but it doesn't seem as big as the swap IMO.
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Post by blck87gtconv on Apr 13, 2005 13:54:44 GMT -5
For those last two questions:
the 3sfe can handle some boost, but not high boost. I wouldn't go over 7pounds of boost, myself.
The stock 3sfe S-53 tranny is good for 300hp, I think.. if I'm remembering correctly. You woudln't want to try to get more than that out of a 3sfe with stock internals anyway.
I suppose in theory, this COULD work, but even still, I would use a metal headgasket.
But when it comes down to it, It might actually be better to just drop in a 3sgte. I hate the idea of giving up too, but I just don't see this working out.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 13, 2005 19:09:19 GMT -5
and 300hp with the tranny you mean for the manual trans, not the auto, correct? I know mine's an auto but I was planning on getting it converted to a manual. I just think it would be an interesting idea, especially if those setups could be made for cheap.
If a TPS & ECU hack went for 100-200 bucks apice, a turbo manifold goes for like 75-100 on ebay, a turbo kit for like 300-500(depending on the quality/wear/seller), a few extra pipes and fittings probably another 50-100 bucks, new pistons for what 500-600 bucks(?), a better fuel pump for like 100 bucks, a metal head gasket/set for 100 bucks or so, an intercooler for like 200 bucks, and installation and rebuild...Am I missing anything? That comes out to like 1400 to 1900 + install + rebuild...I suppose depending on the deals you get, _maybe_ it is cheaper to go 3sgte swap...but you have to also remember that if you have someone else do it for you, the 3sgte is gunna cost lots more $$$ in labor costs....not to mention the wiring harness mess you have to make. Am I really missing anything significant price-wise?
And is it just me, or do the 3sgte's go for as much as $2k alone(depending on the gen)..I know you can get them as low as 800-1200 but are they any good? AND that doesn't even include the price of the ECU, harness, and random parts you'll need to buy along the way either usually. I don't know, I'm just searching around figuring out different options...I guess it would probably be better to swap a 3sgte in unless you're planning on having someone else install it...I don't plan on spending 2-3k on labor costs alone...that's more than the eng+parts themselves.
So I guess say 1500 + 2-3k labor for swap, or 1400-1900 + 500-1000(and that may be over-estimating) for labor on 3sfe to 3sfte conversion.
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Post by White87GT on Apr 13, 2005 21:59:16 GMT -5
and 300hp with the tranny you mean for the manual trans, not the auto, correct? I know mine's an auto but I was planning on getting it converted to a manual. I just think it would be an interesting idea, especially if those setups could be made for cheap. If a TPS & ECU hack went for 100-200 bucks apice, a turbo manifold goes for like 75-100 on ebay, a turbo kit for like 300-500(depending on the quality/wear/seller), a few extra pipes and fittings probably another 50-100 bucks, new pistons for what 500-600 bucks(?), a better fuel pump for like 100 bucks, a metal head gasket/set for 100 bucks or so, an intercooler for like 200 bucks, and installation and rebuild...Am I missing anything? That comes out to like 1400 to 1900 + install + rebuild...I suppose depending on the deals you get, _maybe_ it is cheaper to go 3sgte swap...but you have to also remember that if you have someone else do it for you, the 3sgte is gunna cost lots more $$$ in labor costs....not to mention the wiring harness mess you have to make. Am I really missing anything significant price-wise? And is it just me, or do the 3sgte's go for as much as $2k alone(depending on the gen)..I know you can get them as low as 800-1200 but are they any good? AND that doesn't even include the price of the ECU, harness, and random parts you'll need to buy along the way either usually. I don't know, I'm just searching around figuring out different options...I guess it would probably be better to swap a 3sgte in unless you're planning on having someone else install it...I don't plan on spending 2-3k on labor costs alone...that's more than the eng+parts themselves. So I guess say 1500 + 2-3k labor for swap, or 1400-1900 + 500-1000(and that may be over-estimating) for labor on 3sfe to 3sfte conversion. I remember hearing a long time ago that the auto was good for 140 or so crank HP. Much more and you'll kill it. You might want to check Jeremy's thread in the MAP-MAF whatever thread in aftermarket, he explains why this just cannot be done reliably. |
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Post by Joel87GT on Apr 13, 2005 22:10:28 GMT -5
Jason is right. 3SFE cant handle more than 7PSI. Matter fact that is the borderline 7000 RPMs at 7PSI. Problem, though - you will need a regulated WasteGate to actuate at 5PSI. Plus return oil line feeds tapped out of your block to your CT26 at PSI oil circulation back to your oil pan.
This project has been down before. I am remember reading this from TOYOTACELICAONLINE.COM. Yeah IHAYES "Totally BIAASSSS SITE. Anyways thats an old story I dont want to remember.
Ok the project was called 3SFTE. What the guy did was matted the GTE manifold to his FE block. And he tapped oil feed returns from his block to his turbo and to his oil pan.
His 3sfte ran fine only for a few minutes down the road. It was boosting just fine. But he didnt have controlled WasteGate limit that would release the PSI beyond 7PSI ~ 7000RPMs. He blew the piston straight down pass the crank shaft.
The 3sfe was built to be light weight internals than the GEs so it can do HI quick RPMS but it cant handle the stress beyond 7PSI.
If you were to strengthen the internals you should be able to do 15PSI with a regulated WasteGate set at 10PSI. If you going to turbo a 3sfe dont use the stock WasteGate off a 3sgte. (wait a second, 3SGTEdoes it come with a Wastegat, Just BOV right?) Get aftermarket where you can set the PSI WasteGate levels from 5PSI to 25PSI.
This is where Jeremy domain is ~ he can futher comment on this. Me I use the eram cuz it safe. It produces no more than 3PSI/7000RPMs.
Also the 3sfe trans can handle 250HP. Just dont expect your stock clutch to last.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 14, 2005 1:13:17 GMT -5
okay, I had just gotten this other idea while reading one of Jeremy's posts on the AFM mod thread...Using basic physics and math, couldn't you actually calculate the exact or at least estimate the position of the throttle using the Airflow meter's measurement in combination with a few other variables that are probably also being sent to the ECU(which could likely be intercepted)? Using that calculation...if possible would actually make this so called need for a better TPS obsolete...or does the AFM become inaccurate when boosted or on high intake levels? I would hope there is a way to do this.
You may need a near exact measurement of the size of the cylinders for a full stroke then it would be something along the lines of...
(est. volume intake per minute) / ( [(1 cylinder stroke volume *4) + (est. fuel volume)] * rpms) = Throttle % open
does that sound wrong....it may be missing something...maybe i wouldn't multiply the volume by 4 but you get the point....i'm pretty sure the tps can be emulated using the AFM and other readings at least to an accuracy that's close enough to change the needed fuel maps. I hope I'm not just pulling this out of my bum...It sounds pretty logical to me. Am I alone? lol.
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Post by 3sgeturbo on Apr 23, 2005 10:31:19 GMT -5
An easy route would be reading just boost pressure and rpm. This is what an additional injector controller does. This is the most practical route for forced induction engine especially on cars that are pre-MAP based ECUs like the 3sfe and 3sge. My plan is using an HKS AICIII for fuel enrichment and a MSD BTM to pull timing under boost. And re-gapped plugs from stock .44 to .39 or .35. Using two 430cc injectors from a third gen turbo Supra and a Walbro 190 lph in tank pump.
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Post by axis on Apr 23, 2005 18:06:18 GMT -5
I dont understand this "hack" you speak of. You cannot just hook a laptop up to some magic port on your car, open VisualStudio.net and read the the functions which calculate the fuel delivery based on your airflow. You are talking about a standalone engine management system, or at the very least a professional ecu mod, both of which are $$$. Companies which sell standalone units and mod ecu's had programmers and engineers work for a long time to figure out how the ecu works internally. Sorry to crap on your birthday party.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 25, 2005 1:01:26 GMT -5
I dont understand this "hack" you speak of. You cannot just hook a laptop up to some magic port on your car, open VisualStudio.net and read the the functions which calculate the fuel delivery based on your airflow. You are talking about a standalone engine management system, or at the very least a professional ecu mod, both of which are $$$. Companies which sell standalone units and mod ecu's had programmers and engineers work for a long time to figure out how the ecu works internally. Sorry to crap on your birthday party. I understand...I'm not that stupid. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough that I'd need to learn some electronics and that I've already got some major understanding of many different languages including PIC which is a good microchip language. I also understand it wouldn't be something I can do overnight or anything. I know it takes time to find charts to what cords are for what for the ECU, then researching and or tapping the ECU wires and HOW they work, etc. I didn't expect to be able to write a very simple program that's going to just tell the ecu to do something else. I hope you didn't think that's what I was thinking. |
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Post by axis on Apr 25, 2005 3:31:48 GMT -5
ok my bad that is what i thought. sounds like youve got a good plan, but ems would probably end up being a better solution.
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Post by phillk6751 on Apr 25, 2005 10:35:47 GMT -5
ok my bad that is what i thought. sounds like youve got a good plan, but ems would probably end up being a better solution. yeah...but i think i've decided to delay my plans until: 1) Joel's 3s-fte project gets finished 2) I get $$$ If Joel's 3s-fte project succeeds i'm dumping this idea down the drain....if it fails...well....I may as well decide to go through with this idea but I dunno. What do you mean EMS? The Standalone management system? |
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Post by axis on Apr 26, 2005 1:33:27 GMT -5
from what i heard hes using a 3sge now, but we should hear it from Joel first.
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Post by Jeremy on Apr 26, 2005 14:28:09 GMT -5
yea I am selling him a 3S-GE to use for his project.
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